Bob Trebilcock: Welcome to The Rebound, where we'll explore the issues facing supply chain managers as our industry gets back up and running in a post-COVID world. This podcast is hosted by Abe Eshkenazi, CEO of the Association for Supply Chain Management, and Bob Trebilcock, editorial director of Supply Chain Management Review. Remember that Abe and Bob welcome your comments. Now, to today's episode.

Bob: Welcome to today's episode of The Rebound. I'm Bob Trebilcock.

Abe Eshkenazi: I'm Abe Eshkenazi.

Bob: This is where I would normally say, "And joining us today is," but today, it's just me and Abe. As it turns out, after nearly 70 episodes, this is the last episode of the podcast. I guess I could tell you why. That's because in a few weeks after this recording, I'm riding off into the sunset. Abe, it's been quite a run.

Abe: Bob, I couldn't imagine, number one, that we'd do 70 episodes after we started this. Secondly, the individuals that we've met and topics that we've covered have been so not only informational, but so inspirational about supply chain. I'm pretty excited about, not only the field, but a lot of the people that we met and the changes that they're really implementing in our environment.

Bob: If I blow our horn a little bit, and buyer beware, I have not actually confirmed this stat. I am a reporter. I'm supposed to do that. Somebody told me, we're the number three ranked supply chain podcast. Now, I jokingly say that's a little bit like being the third-best surfer in Kansas. Still, I think we've done okay. It's been an awful lot of fun. You're right. We've really covered the breadth.

I want to look back a few years. I remember a call we had in the spring of 2020. I want to get what you recall. The world was shutting down then because of COVID. Supply chain was leading the news and not for great reasons. It was consumers couldn't get toilet paper and chicken breasts. We were getting a lot of attention and for all the wrong reasons. What did you want to get out of The Rebound? In many respects, this was your baby.

Abe: It's really interesting, Bob. When I called you, I really had just an inkling of what I thought we needed to provide the market. Not only supply chain professionals, but the consumers and the general public in mind, patients alike. The first was an understanding of supply chain. I'm not sure that we really had a clear, not only knowledge of what supply chain was. Even individuals in the industry had a hard time explaining to their friends and their family what they did for a living, so that was first. Get individuals to understand what supply chain is all about.

Secondly, some confidence in our supply chain. We took a pretty bad hit during COVID in terms of being able to respond to the various shifts in demand as well as surges. We did not do a good job within the supply chain. Back then, we needed to provide some confidence that the supply chain will respond to the various challenges as we have in the past. That was among the first.

Secondly, the supply chain leaders, giving them an opportunity to identify how they are improving their organization, how they're focused not only on providing what consumers need, but ensuring that we do so in a sustainable manner. Supply chain leaders, those individuals that work on the back office, those men and the women who really make the world go needed to have a voice. I think we provided them some voice in the marketplace about the changes that they're impacted by and the changes that they're impacting.

Then lastly, the global nature of supply chain. I'm not sure most people really understand how interconnected supply chain is across the globe with the various industries and the various products and services that we need, to give people an insight in terms of how complex it is, but more importantly, how critical it is to our lives, to our economies, to our ecologies.

Bob: One observation and then one other question. One, when you said that supply chain leaders had a hard time explaining to their friends and family what they did. I used to joke that if you want to empty a dinner party, invite me. Then when you want people to leave, just ask them, "Well, what is supply chain management, Bob?" I could empty the room in no time going through that.

One of our guests, Lynn Torrel, who's now the chief procurement officer at Google, said to me. I did an interview with her in Supply Chain Management Review. Then we had her on the podcast. She said to us, "Thank you. My mother now knows what I do for a living." I do think we brought some level of attention and understanding to our audience. When you go through those points that you had in mind when we started this and also the broader supply chain, just looking back, one, do you think we pulled it off? Two, how do you assess how supply chain pulled this off getting through what was a very difficult time?

Abe: I think in some respects, I think we've made some dent in the marketplace in terms of the information. I think there was a much better not only understanding of the term "supply chain." While there may not be a deep understanding of what it takes to actually affect an efficient supply chain, at least we don't have to explain to people that there is a supply chain that does provide their products and all the things that we need as consumers and patients alike. That was first.

Then when we take a look at the industry itself, we're still dealing with some of the challenges that we experienced in COVID. That is stockouts in rent, in different industries we're seeing that we're still struggling. The Panama Canal, the Red Sea issues, we have not come out of this clean just yet. I think there is quite a bit more work to be done on supply chain, especially on the sustainability side. I think we have a say-do gap there. As we've covered over and over again, it's not a function of organizations and individuals not being aware.

I think we're all aware of what the impact of the supply chain is on our ecologies. I think the challenge that we have, as you're pointing out, is now doing something about it. We know the clear challenges that we have in front of us. Now, we need to influence some of the solutions. This is where I have a lot more confidence. Because when you hear the supply chain professionals and the impact that they're making on their organizations sustainably, you have to be heartened by what the future holds for us.

Bob: I hesitate to use the phrase "silver lining," given everything that we went through, but bear with me a moment. Do you think if there was a positive outcome, it's that it accelerated things that were happening or were going to happen anyway in supply chain? In order to just get through the moment or respond to the moment, and I'm not just talking about the shutdown, but then everything that we dealt with when we started back up and we're experiencing really severe shortages and things like that, do you think what the experience that we all went through accelerated the moment and accelerated the evolution of supply chain?

Abe: Yes, I think it did. I think within ASCM, we had, a number of years ago, predicted that the path to leadership and organizations would have been through supply chain as it had been through finance and a couple of other functions. When we take a look at the role of the supply chain professional organizations today, we share that there are really only two functions in an organization that have to know everything that goes on in the company.

Obviously, the first is finance. Nothing in the organization occurs without finance having a role or having a function within the development as well as the management of it. The second is supply chain. Nothing happens within an organization that does not involve the supply chain, either on the sourcing, the planning or on the manufacturing, or logistics side. When you take a look at the individuals that are leading supply chains, these are competent, capable individuals. Now, they have a voice.

We used to argue, as I said, within ASCM that supply chain professionals needed a voice at the table at the C-suite. Now, we do have a voice, Bob. We have supply chain professionals at the C-suite. Now, they need to use their voice to make the necessary changes. These are very competent, capable individuals. Now, they're in a position to make the necessary changes for their organizations. I think that's a significant step forward. I'm not sure it would have happened as quickly because of the challenges that we went through. I think it did accelerate it.

Bob: Getting ready for this episode, I did a little "walk down memory lane" and looked over all the people that we've had on as guests. One thing in particular struck me was that we really did manage the cover, the breadth of supply chain management. You just outlined the SCOR model, right? Plan, source, make, deliver, return. I think we hit every one of those categories multiple times and talked about sustainability. We talked about talent development. We talked about some new business models.

I was really proud of the diversity and variety of things we put together. I thought to wrap this up, we could take a look back at maybe five episodes that really stood it out. I selected them. I'm going to talk about them, tell you a little bit about what struck me, and then tell me what you recall from that one. Then we'll look at the other four. The first one for me was Episode 2 with Greg Toornman.

Greg is the vice president of global materials, logistics, and demand planning for AGCO. AGCO, if you're not familiar with them, is one of the largest manufacturers of agricultural equipment in the world. Greg was brought to me by Steve Banker, who's a supply chain analyst in Boston, because Steve had an interview with him and was just really impressed. What impressed him and what impressed me was that at AGCO, they had operations in Wuhan.

They started hearing vibrations back in December that something was going on. They didn't quite know what. They didn't know it was going to be a pandemic, that it was going to be worldwide. They just knew it was something that was going on. They had major operations there and they had to respond. They had put in a real good sensing platform within their organization. They listened, they took it seriously, and they started preparing for what happened in Wuhan.

Part of it was getting PPE before PPE was a problem and getting it over to Wuhan so that they could continue to operate. They developed this playbook to get them through in China. When it started moving west and went into Italy, well, they had a lot of operations in Italy, and they took that same playbook and put it to use there, and working with government officials, were able to continue to operate in some fashion in Italy. Then it moved into Brazil and South America, same thing. At the time we interviewed them, they had really gotten through with very little in the way of disruption to their operations.

Now, going forward, I'm sure that they probably started running out of parts just like everybody else. Nothing you can do about that when your suppliers are shut down. The important thing to me was they were listening. They weren't just writing it off. They weren't dismissing it. They were listening. They had that sensing in their organization and they had a resilience plan in place and were able to execute on it. That was before everybody was talking about resilience and agility. Anyway, that one really struck me and it was number two out of the gate.

Abe: I couldn't agree with you more, Bob. When you take a look back in terms of the challenges that the pandemic really thrust upon us, there were a lot of latent issues within supply chain. AGCO seemed to have addressed the visibility part within their supply chain, which did provide them that early-warning systems. To your point, having an early-warning system is one thing. Having a playbook or scenario plan in which you make the necessary changes is a very different dynamic for a lot of organizations.

More often than not, they're not prepared for the types of disruptions that we're facing today. Usually, as we all know, we tend to focus on the last disruption as opposed to what possibilities or what could occur today. I think that's what really separated AGCO from me is that not only did they have the visibility, but they had the flexibility within their system to make the necessary changes.

Again, when you're talking, as you pointed out, Bob, the resiliency. This is the new hallmark for organizations today is to be resilient, is to ensure that you are in operations no matter what. You can fill in that no matter with pandemics, geopolitical issues, a lot of the environmental issues. We have dealt with so many disruptions and having that visibility into their extended supply chain so they could get the early-warning systems enabled them to not only respond a little bit quicker than most but, more importantly, that they're agile enough to take advantage of the opportunity where others were really locked down.

Bob: The second one I'd like to highlight was Episode 20, Marcia Brey from GE Appliances. In one of our conversations, you had mentioned to me that this one had really stuck out for you. Marcia was so good. We had her twice. We had her on a panel when we did a Rebound live from ASCM during one of the virtual years. GEA has really adapted its supply chain to the new realities, particularly the digital age.

I know I did a piece with them in Modern Materials Handling, the other book I edit, where they developed something they called the "digital thread" to get them visibility from the manufacturing floor to their customers, to what's on a truck, to what's in the yard at their distribution centers and what's in their DCs. That's really quite impressive. We've had other people from GEA that talk about how they're creating digital twins their manufacturing operations. Just a really great company that is really taking steps to adapt to this new era. What struck out to you about Marcia?

Abe: I think that word "adapt,” I think, was key for me, Bob. We talk about resiliency and that is understanding what you need to do to stay in business. GE took it to the next step and that was the agility part. Not only were they resilient, but they were agile enough to make the necessary changes within their organizations. We did that study with the Economist Intelligence Unit about how companies back in '20 were responding to the pandemic.

How many of them wanted to get back to where they were prior to the pandemic and how many of them said, "We are never going back to where we were"? It was about a 50-50 split in terms of companies, in terms of their expectations. GE obviously was on, "We're never going back to where we were." They did the necessary steps to redesign their supply chain, to take advantage of it, and to gain market share.

This was an extraordinary step forward for a mammoth organization to redesign their supply chains, to take advantage of the agility within their organization. I think when you take a look at companies in terms of what their expectations are between that resiliency and agility as we just spoke, most of them will focus on the resiliency. Just get me back. GE and I think Marcia did an extraordinary job of recognizing that this was a golden opportunity for them to transform their supply chains and take advantage of the disruption as opposed to seeing it as a limitation on what they can do.

Bob: I've had the opportunity to get to know GEA pretty closely in recent years. I've toured some of their factories. I've had them as speakers at my event, done a number of articles with them. The thing that has really struck me is Bill Good, essentially their key supply chain officer, has really had a holistic vision. Along with the things that we talked about with Marcia, which is their logistics and transportation in order of fulfillment, or with Alison Seward about how they're creating digital twins their manufacturing plants, Bill has done things around recruiting where he's just said, "Whatever we've been doing for the last 20 years just isn't working when it comes to getting people."

We've really got to think about, A, how we're developing-- It's everything from developing new engineers. They realized that the bulk of their engineering talent was in its 50s because they hadn't been recruiting a lot of new young people, but also doing things at the line like they hired a guy in Louisville to work in the factory, who turned out to have been a translator in Afghanistan. He was an Afghani refugee but had worked with our military in Afghanistan.

He let them know that there was a whole population of Afghani refugees in Louisville who were looking for work. They turned him into a recruiter and the liaison between the Afghani refugee community and GEA. At the time that I interviewed Bill about this, they had 60 or 70 employees that they'd been able to hire. It was basically saying, "We've got to think differently, look in different places. How are we going to do that?" To me, they're just a remarkable organization.

Abe: Especially given their size, Bob. When you talk about an organization, it's one thing to change an organization that is fewer employees and not a very sophisticated supply chain. When you're talking about GE, you're talking about an extraordinary multinational organization. To realign it, I think that speaks volumes about their capabilities.

Bob: Now, we've had Yossi Sheffi on twice, maybe more. I know Episode 13 and Episode 50, they were both tied to books Yossi had done. I was trying to think about what to say about Yossi. He's always a remarkable interview because Yossi is one of, to me, the real thought leaders in our space. Yossi spoke at ASCM CONNECT about AI last year. It was just a fabulous presentation. I don't know what to say about Yossi other than every time I talk to him, I learn something. I learned something from him on these. Just remarkable episodes. Tell me about your experience with Yossi and what stands out either from the episodes or even Yossi as an ASCM presenter because he's often at your event.

Abe: Yes, I couldn't agree with you more, Bob. This is one of those situations. When Yossi speaks, everybody should shut up and listen. He has significant insight in terms of the pulse of supply chain. What I'm really just in awe of him is how he's been able to transcend that knowledge from the foundations of supply chain back in the '80s and the '90s and what we're talking about today. He is still among the thought leaders within the industry.

When we're talking about the concept of supply chains on just-in-time and just-in-case and all the various aspects of AI and blockchain, you can't find a more knowledgeable individual that could really break it down into all the complex parts into understandable pieces so that we can approach it and that we can embrace the opportunity to make the change. Yossi has been a mentor of mine in terms of what it means to be a supply chain professional and to prepare the industry for these individuals. Again, Yossi is an oracle within the supply chain industry. I think, as you indicated before, you should invite him every opportunity that you can to speak with him.

Bob: A couple of things that have always stood out with me for Yossi. One, he's never been afraid to go against the grain. He wrote a book. He's evolved from this book, but he wrote the book, I don't know, six, seven years ago that the subtitle should have been, Sustainability, It's All Hooey, because the book was basically saying nobody's really doing anything and what they're doing really isn't going to make a difference. We really need a concerted industry effort and we're not doing that.

I remember on one of our episodes, you just mentioned just-in-time, just-in-case, where Yossi, on the episode, was making the argument that everybody's talking about reshoring and nearshoring and that's all great, but China isn't going to go away. Just-in-time is not dead. It just makes too much sense. The second was that we're all enamored with and still trying to figure out AI.

He was very down-to-earth at your event after talking about what's going on at AI by ending it by saying, I think you might've asked him the question, "So what comes next?" His response was, "I don't know. Ask me in 10 years." Yossi gives you the vision, but also gives you the reality. He did that on our episodes, which I thought was great. For the last two, I think one of the things that we did really well, and I know that sustainability is near and dear to your heart and to ASCM, we had a number of episodes that dealt with sustainability, diversity, and other things that relate to that.

I wanted to highlight two of them. One was Episode 41 with Claudia Freed from EALgreen. Now, what I loved about this episode, and I've gotten to know Claudia a little bit personally here in Chicago, is, man, she is a force of nature. That's number one, right? You just wind her up and let her go. The thing that EALgreen is doing is combining supply chain management, sustainability, and philanthropy all in one organization.

For those who aren't familiar with them, they get donations from organizations, manufacturers, distributors of excess inventory. One, she's got a supply chain in order to get it in a sustainable manner to one of her two distribution centers where they're going to inspect it, determine what's the best way to sell it, to break it down into component parts, all to avoid going to the landfill. They do that in a sustainable way. They worked out things with transportation providers.

They then resell it at a very deep discount to academic institutions. The difference, the variable between the sale price, and what it ought to sell for goes to fund scholarships. They've got supply chain management. They've got their own supply chain. They've got the sustainability aspect to it. Then they've got the philanthropic aspect to move the organization forward. I was just really enamored with and in awe of that organization and the work they're doing. They have given away millions in scholarships, not necessarily in supply chain, but just educating students.

Abe: Bob, I think when you take a look at the circular nature of what they're trying to do, especially in our environment today in terms of our desire as consumers for variety, we want a lot of stuff. We want a lot of stuff on the shelf, and we want it now. That demand does create a lot of waste. Because as producers provide and manufacturers provide all this variety, not everything is going to sell.

I think Claudia and her team have done an extraordinary job of identifying how we can reduce the waste within the supply chain industry and address a significant gap on the education on the funding side to get people back into school. What a wonderful way to reduce the environmental footprint of supply chains and then also doing good. I can't think of a better dynamic where you have this excess inventory in our supply chains. It normally would have gone into landfills or into scrap. Here, we're bringing it back into the supply chain and having an impact on individuals' lives. That's a great story for supply chain and for Claudia and her team.

Bob: The last one I wanted to talk about was Episode 57. This was the episode that we did live from your 2023 event in Louisville. We had Nico De Golia and Deborah Dull. They are respectively sustainability leaders at Microsoft. That's Nico. Genpact, that's Deborah. The thing that was memorable to me about this one, like Claudia, these were just really smart, really energetic, and really committed leaders. Their companies were committed.

It was great to hear about the things that Microsoft and Genpact, two leaders in their industries, are doing. The other thing is it also pointed the way of the next generation of supply chain leaders because, compared to you and me, these were young supply chain leaders versus old guys like us. Just seeing what the next generation looks like was inspiring to me above and beyond what they're doing.

Abe: When you take a look at the individuals, Bob, and what they're bringing into the marketplace in terms of their passion and their commitment for sustainability, I think that is an extraordinary step forward for our industry. We do have a say-do gap. Let's face it here. Most organizations indicate that sustainability is among the top priorities within the organizations. Yet when we see the investments and when we see the impact, we tend not to see the investment in sustainable practices at the same level as their rhetoric. That was first.

It is heartening to see that individuals do have a commitment to it and that we do not have a say-do gap with their generation. These individuals not only are conscious about what their environment and the impact the supply chain has on it, but they're doing something about it. I don't know that necessarily 20 or 30 years ago, there would have been a job for either one of these individuals in supply chain, but here we are today. This is from my perspective. I think this could be one of the leading aspects of supply chain in terms of transformation and doing it in a sustainable and a responsible manner.

When you take a look at Nico, when we take a look at Deborah in terms of what they're bringing into the industry, not only the knowledge, but the passion to make a difference, I think we've got a pretty good head start in terms of getting these people engaged in the supply chain, but also having their voices heard within supply chain. We were very lucky to have them at ASCM CONNECT last year, but I think it does denote that we do have quite a bit of work to do within the supply chain and within the impact that it has on our environment. I think we're all very clear on the economic benefits of supply chain. I think we need to elevate that environmental impact at the same level.

Bob: I couldn't agree more. Before I turn this over to you to wrap it up, Abe, I just wanted to say you and I first talked. It was May of 2024. We're almost four years and it has been just an awful lot of fun, the co-hosts, the podcast with you. I've been going to the ASCM events, I think going back to 2013. Getting to know the organization a little bit better, participating in ASCM CONNECT, doing this podcast with you, I just can't say enough good about the experience. Again, thanks for the opportunity. It's been a lot of fun. Why don't you take us out?

Abe: Bob, when I called you four years ago, I had no idea that you and I would learn so much about supply chain after four years of meeting the individuals. I can't thank you enough, not only for your inspiration, but for your insight and your friendship in doing these episodes. We've met a lot of tremendous people who are making changes within supply chain to the benefit of consumers and patients and the world alike. I just can't honestly thank you enough for your commitment, your passion, and your desire to make a difference. Thank you very much, Bob.

As Bob indicated, as this rebound comes to a close, we want to thank you, our incredible listeners, for joining us on this journey. It has been quite a ride, but I wanted to indicate that this isn't goodbye. Rather, it's a chance for us to evolve and bring you something different. This summer, we're getting ready for a new podcast from ASCM.

It's really designed to not only follow through on the promise that Bob and I made to provide that insight into supply chain for consumers and patients, but it's to provide you some insight into the innovation and all the impact that supply chain is having on our lives, on our economies and our ecologies. Stay with us and you'll see that we're moving forward. Until then, stay with ASCM through our website, social media, and all the resources that we offer. Keep learning, keep innovating. Stay with us and stay in supply chain. You are making a difference in people's lives. For The Rebound, I'm Abe Eshkenazi.

Bob: I'm Bob Trebilcock.

Abe: All the best, everyone. Thanks.

Bob: Thank you.

Bob: The Rebound is a joint production of the Association for Supply Chain Management and Supply Chain Management Review. For more information, be sure to visit ascm.org and scmr.com. We hope you'll join us again.